<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1576</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/24/99 2:46:25 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, December 24 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1576<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: (OT) Mental Health in Australia<BR>
Re:  Racial depictions<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: Drawing Program <BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: Gunnery<BR>
Re: OT-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
re: England<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1575<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: Drawing Program <BR>
Re: USIP<BR>
Re: England<BR>
winning, losing, and not winning wars (was re: England)<BR>
Re: England... [WWII Casaulties]<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: England... [WWII Casaulties] <BR>
Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: Drawing Program <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:52:25 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) Mental Health in Australia<BR>
<BR>
>On 20/12/99, Rob Prior said :<BR>
><BR>
><<Snippage>><BR>
><BR>
>>I rather liked their solution, too. Stop giving professional sports teams<BR>
>>tax money, and instead spend it on community health care.  They'd added up<BR>
>>the money given to professional sports teams, and figured that less than<BR>
>>half of that total would be enough to provide good community care.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Tenuous ObTrav: IMTU, professional sports teams get no government money.<BR>
>>They are either supported by gate receipts, or noble patronage.<BR>
><BR>
>Professional sports teams get government MONEY ?????  With *their* salary<BR>
>cap ???  No wonder there's no money for welfare.  There's barely any money<BR>
>for amateur sports here, let alone the professionals.<BR>
<BR>
Sadly, yes. Grants from funds for startup businesses, tax exemptions,<BR>
bailouts, free facilities constructed and run at public expense...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:58:03 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re:  Racial depictions<BR>
<BR>
>>  Looking up the luminosities of these two stars shows why these particular<BR>
>> races are "white". Pliebr has a luminosity of 0.42 (Sol = 1.0), while<BR>
>>Vlands<BR>
>> main star is actually a bit of a mystery. The sector listings for Vland<BR>
>>list<BR>
>> a K8-V (lumin. = 0.06!), while the text from V&V mentions a "hot, F-type<BR>
>> star" of luminosity 1.21. Both citations are from V&V, by the way, so it<BR>
>> seems that the DGP holdings just got a little less valuable...<BR>
><BR>
>The thing about Vilani is that they are _specifically_ mentioned in text<BR>
>in Vilani & Vargr as being dark skinned. The V&V text on the planet<BR>
>Vland mentions the type F star as well. Therefore the logical conclusion<BR>
>[IMNSHO] is that the sector data is in error.<BR>
<BR>
High UV=dark skin, low UV=light skin is not a human universal even on<BR>
earth.  Check out, for example, Tasmania.<BR>
<BR>
This was nicely explained by Jared Diamond in, IIRC, "The Third<BR>
Chimpanzee". Part of his argument was that skin colour is part of a complex<BR>
of genes, which means that (a) other factors may 'override' UV radiation,<BR>
and (b) if you lack the gene(s) that produce high (or low) melanin levels<BR>
then there is nothing for evolution to work with.<BR>
<BR>
So having dark-skinned Vilani from a low-UV star is entirely possible, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:27:41 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
>>>Sounds like ROLLERBALL could also be a popular sport on some Traveller<BR>
>>>lower-tech (and maybe even some higher-tech) worlds, especially those set<BR>
>up<BR>
>>>as corporate worlds. It's been awhile since that movie came out...:) :)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Now that was a fun movie... at least, the interesting parts were fun.<BR>
>>There were huge stretches of the movie that were rather snore-inducing.<BR>
>>I'd love to see a contemporary remake of the film, but with some tighter<BR>
>>scripting so that the long drawn-out dull bits from the original are<BR>
>>shortened or gone altogether.<BR>
>>     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada<BR>
><BR>
>    The book the script was lifted from was very good, it's called<BR>
>"Killerbowl" and it's Gridiron in hi-tech plastic armour and bloody big<BR>
>knives. The players live in a society where skill is emphasised and the fans<BR>
>only want blood, so the networks arrange it so the fans get what they want.<BR>
>I personally think it was the first ever cyberpunk book.<BR>
<BR>
Odd, I always thought it was based on a short story called "Rollerball". I<BR>
think the author was Harrison (not Harry, but someone else) but I could be<BR>
mistaken. Books packed away, so I can't check that right now...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:35:04 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program <BR>
<BR>
At 02:02 pm 12/24/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> I really think Amiga could have been a much more powerful, robust<BR>
and stable<BR>
>> machine than the others out there.  You can't tell me Gates and<BR>
his cronies<BR>
>> couldn't see what a threat this was and not do something to<BR>
forestall it.<BR>
>> Who would want a crummy Windows PC with its limitations when you<BR>
can have 10<BR>
>> times the machine and a more stable operating system?<BR>
><BR>
>Now you know why I went Linux.<BR>
<BR>
	Sorry, but Linux just isn't ready as a prime-time user operating<BR>
system. Expert's 'toy,' powerserver, dedicated box, yes. But Joe<BR>
Public won't give it the time of day. And yes, I am slowly learning<BR>
Linux, with the goal of using it as a server and firewall. But I<BR>
don't expect to drop Winblows for a while, because I still need to be<BR>
able to get work done, and there's just too steep a learning curve to<BR>
Linux.<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see<BR>
random acts of situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:35:47 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
And of course there's racing in several incarnations.  If anyone's seen the <BR>
PC/Playstation game WipeOut (high speed grav vehicle racing with weapons) it <BR>
seems perfect for Trav to me...kind of a far future Formula One.<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:31:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 12/23/99 at 08:27 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>Well, I'm rather fond of the description in Heinlein's "Citizen of the<BR>
>>Galaxy". Basicly, while the computer does most of the work, the gunner is<BR>
>>constanly using his "trained intuition" to suggest options "What if he<BR>
>>changes course or accel like *this*?" "What if we do *that*?"<BR>
><BR>
>>Basicly, while the computer is working away on a move/response decision<BR>
>>tree (like the "look ahead" function in chess programs) the human is<BR>
>>suggesting which branches of the "tree" are most worth following (the<BR>
>>"value" function of the chess program). <BR>
><BR>
> I agree, and that is the goal for Gunnery IMTU, *but* just how to you<BR>
> roleplay that?  No, that's not the question..."How do you *roll* play<BR>
> that?"...that's closer to what I mean.<BR>
><BR>
> In short, what kind of mechanics could I put into a game that would<BR>
> capture that feel?<BR>
<BR>
Just say that the ability to make those "good guesses" *is* (human)<BR>
gunnery skill. Just as the (computer) gunnery "skill" in gunnery<BR>
programs lies in being able to do a better job of tracking down "all"<BR>
possibilities. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:37:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> BRILLIANT!!! Where did you get this, or did you write it yourself? <BR>
<BR>
It's been floating around the net since shortly after the Waco<BR>
disaster. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:12:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>     (In our mapping principles class a few years back a student answered the<BR>
> "multiple guess" question of : What does the note "Ford" mean at grid ref<BR>
> blah-blah, with "Dumped car")<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can feel a *little* sympathy for him. Fords in streams aren't<BR>
the sort of thing folks who aren't into historical novels or fantasy<BR>
would know about.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:00:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: England<BR>
<BR>
>From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>The Channel Islands are a part of Britain in the same<BR>
<BR>
>way that Guam is a state in the United States of <BR>
>America.<BR>
<BR>
Pretty good analogy, but I'd Guam:USA as Falklands:UK,<BR>
and probably Puerto Rico:USA as Channel Islands:UK. <BR>
As to any of those islands, the mother country ought<BR>
not to be nonchalant about a foreign invasion, which<BR>
was my point.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn <BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:04:54 -0500<BR>
From: John Macek <macek@erols.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1575<BR>
<BR>
Traveller-digest wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
If I'm not mistaken, there was zero Traveller content in this digest.<BR>
8^(<BR>
<BR>
I'd rather see on topic flame wars than most anything off topic.<BR>
<BR>
Pirates!  I say they exist!  All you who say otherwise are wrong!<BR>
;^)<BR>
<BR>
Happy Holidays,<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
 Steampunk?!? Really! There's nothing 'punk' about it!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:58:09 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
On 12/24/99 at 01:12 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>     (In our mapping principles class a few years back a student answered the<BR>
>> "multiple guess" question of : What does the note "Ford" mean at grid ref<BR>
>> blah-blah, with "Dumped car")<BR>
<BR>
>Well, I can feel a *little* sympathy for him. Fords in streams aren't the<BR>
>sort of thing folks who aren't into historical novels or fantasy would<BR>
>know about.<BR>
<BR>
Or those of us that have spent a good bit of time walking through hills<BR>
and hollows.  In some parts of the US, knowing where, and how, to ford a<BR>
branch is still an important skill.  But, heck, I bet most of you have<BR>
never seen a small stream called a branch!  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:57:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program <BR>
<BR>
> At 02:02 pm 12/24/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >> I really think Amiga could have been a much more powerful, robust<BR>
> and stable<BR>
> >> machine than the others out there.  You can't tell me Gates and<BR>
> his cronies<BR>
> >> couldn't see what a threat this was and not do something to<BR>
> forestall it.<BR>
> >> Who would want a crummy Windows PC with its limitations when you<BR>
> can have 10<BR>
> >> times the machine and a more stable operating system?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Now you know why I went Linux.<BR>
> <BR>
> 	Sorry, but Linux just isn't ready as a prime-time user operating<BR>
> system. Expert's 'toy,' powerserver, dedicated box, yes. But Joe<BR>
> Public won't give it the time of day. And yes, I am slowly learning<BR>
> Linux, with the goal of using it as a server and firewall. But I<BR>
> don't expect to drop Winblows for a while, because I still need to be<BR>
> able to get work done, and there's just too steep a learning curve to<BR>
> Linux.<BR>
<BR>
<rant><BR>
<BR>
First off, it ain't a toy.  There are serious commercial programs being ported to Linux now every day.  This wouldn't be happening if it wasn't ready for prime time.  I've got a couple of those commercial applications installed and I use them.  They work just as good, if not a bit better, than their Windoze versions.<BR>
<BR>
2nd, with the use of a graphical interface and a bit of teaching, Linux is *very* user-friendly.  Both KDE and the GNOME interface have done a lot to make things better.  But even command-line Linux is useable.  People used DOS before Windoze came out.  There is no more or less of a learning curve between command line Linux & DOS, it's just a *different* curve from what you're used to.  You'll have to unlearn some stuff to relearn how to do it in Linux.<BR>
<BR>
3rd, it installs a lot easier now, particularly the SuSE, Red Hat, & Caldera distributions.  I haven't played with Slackware in ages, so I couldn't tell you how well that installs.<BR>
<BR>
</rant><BR>
<BR>
However, there *is* a dearth of decent software for Traveller for Linux.<BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:09:59 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: USIP<BR>
<BR>
>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com><BR>
<BR>
Glenn M. Goffin wrote:<BR>
>>This is a very nice idea.  Have you cross-posted it<BR>
>>to the Traveller Culture Mailing List?  <BR>
><BR>
>I'm not on that list, so it never occurred to me. I<BR>
>wouldn't object if someone did and sent me any <BR>
>feedback, but just the TML is sometimes more<BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure I kept a copy, and if I did I'll<BR>
cross-post it.  Many Traveller Culture list members<BR>
are also on the TML (notably Jeff Zeitlin, Kenji<BR>
Schwartz, and Robert O'Connor).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:22:09 -0600<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
Been avoiding that show, just because it's Yet Another Hollywood Attempt at<BR>
Drama on TV.  Given this, perhaps I need to actually give it a shot.<BR>
<BR>
Spoken as the token list liberal/veteran...<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
(PS. I'd pray they would too)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 24/12/1999 12:22 PM, Traveller-digest at<BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:44:50<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: England<BR>
> <BR>
> At 02:59 AM 12/24/1999 -0000, you wrote:<BR>
>>> Doesn't what uniforms the bodies are wearing, what matters is whose flag<BR>
>>> gets planted on top of the heap.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Is that really the important thing?<BR>
> <BR>
> Once the shooting starts, that's the most important thing.  You get out of<BR>
> the Army's way and let it do its job, which is breaking things and hurting<BR>
> people.<BR>
> <BR>
> The current demand from the American public that military be some sort of<BR>
> adventure camp, with every death met by horrendous outcry, disturbs me.<BR>
> What soldiers do is *dangerous.*  Some of them a re going to die, or come<BR>
> home in wheelchairs, or just emotionally scared.  Rather than trying to<BR>
> sugarcoat the service, people should focus on making sure that the veterans<BR>
> get taken care of adequately.<BR>
> <BR>
> There was an episode recently of "The west Wing" in which one of the White<BR>
> House staffers was called out to the Korean War Memorial because his<BR>
> business card had been found in the jacket of a dead homeless man.  Turns<BR>
> out the man had been giving an old coat the staffer had donated years back.<BR>
> <BR>
> The staffer, an ex-Marine, recognizes a tattoo on the dead man's arm, and<BR>
> realizes that he is also a Marine.  After a little searching, he discovers<BR>
> that the man's only living relative is a developmentally disabled brother,<BR>
> who is also homeless.  The staffer uses the President's name to get an<BR>
> honor guard and a slot in Arlington.<BR>
> <BR>
> The President calls him to task for this, saying that "all the homeless<BR>
> vets will come out of the woodwork now."<BR>
> <BR>
> The response?  "Mr. President, I pray they do."<BR>
> - -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:26:16 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: winning, losing, and not winning wars (was re: England)<BR>
<BR>
>From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: England<BR>
>Honestly...winning is nice, but the prime requirement<BR>
<BR>
>is do not ever lose. No matter what, do not lose. <BR>
<BR>
This is a very good analysis.  <BR>
<BR>
Most of Fifth Frontier War consists of the Imperium<BR>
trying not to lose.  Eventually, if the Outworld<BR>
Coalition does not win and the Imperium starts pushing<BR>
them back, the Sword Worlds and Vargr players have to<BR>
figure out how not to lose.  The Zhodani is not in<BR>
danger of losing, but if he has not won by about turn<BR>
40, he's not going to.<BR>
<BR>
>Ex 2--the south lost the American Civil War, at<BR>
>first, losing much infrastructure and being under the<BR>
<BR>
>iron thumb of the federal military and government,<BR>
>determined that they toe the current PC line; but <BR>
>when Lincoln died and Johnson became the boss they <BR>
>went to only not winning, getting to keep self <BR>
<BR>
Booth killed Lincoln in 1865, just after the war was<BR>
over.  Lincoln did not have time to set up the iron<BR>
thumb (although his field commanders, occupying the<BR>
south, did not have any trouble doing so on their<BR>
own).  <BR>
<BR>
Reconstruction, the era of heavy-handed northern<BR>
control (and much carpet-bagging), continued until<BR>
1877.<BR>
<BR>
Your comment "when Lincoln died" is rather bland. <BR>
John Wilkes Booth, a confederate, assassinated him to<BR>
get revenge for the south.  He did not act alone, but<BR>
so far as I have read, the conspiracy of which he was<BR>
part did not extend up to even the lower branches of<BR>
any government (Union, Confederate, or foreign).  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:33:58 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: England... [WWII Casaulties]<BR>
<BR>
>From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
<BR>
>>American battle deaths:   292,000 battle deaths.  No<BR>
<BR>
>>major civilian losses*.<BR>
>[*Although I wonder how Merchant Marine deaths were <BR>
>counted.  That they took significant losses is <BR>
>obvious to anyone who has visited the memorial at<BR>
NYC.]<BR>
<BR>
The total number of US Merchant Marine (my father's<BR>
WW2 service, by the way) was very small compared to<BR>
any one of the armed forces (but I don't remember the<BR>
number).  They lost a large percentage of that small<BR>
number, but the total number is dwarfed by number of,<BR>
e.g., naval personnel lost.<BR>
<BR>
The use of merchant shipping to carry supplies is<BR>
probably very important in the Far Future, but<BR>
logistics is not a prominent feature of Fifth Frontier<BR>
War (and I haven't read the rules of Imperium, which I<BR>
own). <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:35:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>> Lawrence Sanders.  This book is quite good.  His<BR>
use<BR>
>> of language is almost on a par with umm ... er ...<BR>
>>the guy who wrote Clockwork Orange.  <BR>
><BR>
>That would be Anthony Burgess if my memory's working <BR>
>the way it should be.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds right.  OK, two guys with early onset<BR>
Alzheimer's agree.  Pass the anagathics, dear.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:39:03 -0600<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: England... [WWII Casaulties] <BR>
<BR>
Good question - for me the answer is simple enough. They were (despite the<BR>
name which was a remnant of our idiotic 1920 - 1941 foreign policy) navy<BR>
personnel in everything but name. They were not _civilians_.  Same thing<BR>
(but for even worse reasons, alas) can be said of the WASPs. They should be<BR>
counted as Air Corps casualties and I am sure are not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 24/12/1999 3:28 PM, Traveller-digest at<BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:49:28 -0500<BR>
> From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: England... [WWII Casaulties]<BR>
> <BR>
> At 01:22 PM 12/24/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:23:16 -0500<BR>
>> From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
>> American battle deaths:   292,000 battle deaths.  No major civilian losses*.<BR>
> <BR>
> [*Although I wonder how Merchant Marine deaths were counted.  That they<BR>
> took significant losses is obvious to anyone who has visited the memorial<BR>
> at NYC.]<BR>
> _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
> David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
> Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
> Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
> dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
> <BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:24:05 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
<BR>
cos 90 wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >ObTrav:  I desperately want to run a Trav campaign based on South Park.<BR>
> >Suggestions welcomed.<BR>
> <BR>
> First step is to get something that combines South Park with an outer<BR>
> space setting, just to get into the spirit of things:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.infinicorp.com/babylonpark/<BR>
<BR>
~still reviewing the last few months of TML posts, looking for keyboard<BR>
kills~<BR>
<BR>
Last month, while attending ExotiCon II in New Orleans, a number of us<BR>
were gathered in the Babylon 504 video room, watching Babylon Park." <BR>
Among the viewers was Jason Carter....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:21:28 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
At 03:58 pm 12/24/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>On 12/24/99 at 01:12 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
said:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>>     (In our mapping principles class a few years back a student<BR>
answered the<BR>
>>> "multiple guess" question of : What does the note "Ford" mean at<BR>
grid ref<BR>
>>> blah-blah, with "Dumped car")<BR>
><BR>
>>Well, I can feel a *little* sympathy for him. Fords in streams<BR>
aren't the<BR>
>>sort of thing folks who aren't into historical novels or fantasy<BR>
would<BR>
>>know about.<BR>
><BR>
>Or those of us that have spent a good bit of time walking through<BR>
hills<BR>
>and hollows.  In some parts of the US, knowing where, and how, to<BR>
ford a<BR>
>branch is still an important skill.  But, heck, I bet most of you<BR>
have<BR>
>never seen a small stream called a branch!  <g><BR>
<BR>
	Crick, maybe ... but no, not a branch. That's what whaps you in the<BR>
face if you're not careful following somebody.<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see<BR>
random acts of situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:44:51 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program <BR>
<BR>
At 02:57 pm 12/24/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> At 02:02 pm 12/24/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> >> I really think Amiga could have been a much more powerful,<BR>
robust<BR>
>> and stable<BR>
>> >> machine than the others out there.  You can't tell me Gates and<BR>
>> his cronies<BR>
>> >> couldn't see what a threat this was and not do something to<BR>
>> forestall it.<BR>
>> >> Who would want a crummy Windows PC with its limitations when<BR>
you<BR>
>> can have 10<BR>
>> >> times the machine and a more stable operating system?<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Now you know why I went Linux.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> 	Sorry, but Linux just isn't ready as a prime-time user operating<BR>
>> system. Expert's 'toy,' powerserver, dedicated box, yes. But Joe<BR>
>> Public won't give it the time of day. And yes, I am slowly<BR>
learning<BR>
>> Linux, with the goal of using it as a server and firewall. But I<BR>
>> don't expect to drop Winblows for a while, because I still need to<BR>
be<BR>
>> able to get work done, and there's just too steep a learning curve<BR>
to<BR>
>> Linux.<BR>
><BR>
><rant><BR>
><BR>
>First off, it ain't a toy. <BR>
<BR>
	You're right, and I apologize for making light of it. However, I<BR>
stand by the rest of my post. Aside from a relatively small group of<BR>
"enlightened" desktop users, scientific powerusers, and server<BR>
admins, Linux *still* is not ready for the vast masses to joyfully<BR>
strike off the chains of Microsloth and take up their birthright.<BR>
Yes, there are commercial programs being ported to Linux; even my<BR>
favorite game (Civilization). But when I said "prime-time user<BR>
operating system" I meant just that. The millions of users who can<BR>
barely put a Winblows CD in, run Setup, take all the defaults and<BR>
open up AOL.<BR>
<BR>
>2nd, with the use of a graphical interface and a bit of teaching,<BR>
Linux is *very* user-friendly.  Both KDE and the GNOME interface have<BR>
done a lot to make things better.  But even command-line Linux is<BR>
useable.  People used DOS before Windoze came out.  There is no more<BR>
or less of a learning curve between command line Linux & DOS, it's<BR>
just a *different* curve from what you're used to.  You'll have to<BR>
unlearn some stuff to relearn how to do it in Linux.<BR>
<BR>
	I never denied this. What I said is I don't have the *time* to<BR>
abandon all that I know and leap into something new ... and I *am*<BR>
making the effort, which I doubt most of the 'masses' will. In fact,<BR>
I'm deliberately starting with command line Linux precisely because<BR>
*I* want to know what's going on under the hood.<BR>
<BR>
>3rd, it installs a lot easier now, particularly the SuSE, Red Hat, &<BR>
Caldera distributions.  I haven't played with Slackware in ages, so I<BR>
couldn't tell you how well that installs.<BR>
<BR>
	RH6.0 installs fairly easily, both on a 486 and P100. And it runs a<BR>
*hell* of a lot faster on the P100 than Winblows 2000 (although to be<BR>
honest it was an early release candidate).<BR>
<BR>
	I didn't mean to make light of or deny the superiority of Linux. I'm<BR>
trying to learn it myself, I have a sub to Linux Journal, and I fully<BR>
intend to use it in a 'production' environment. And I am rooting like<BR>
dickens it plays 1,000lb penguin to Bill's 800lb gorilla.<BR>
<BR>
	But its very flexibility and power are still standing in the way.<BR>
Yes, the install is much better. But it *still* won't meet your<BR>
average, non-Unix, non-computer literate user's ability level. I've<BR>
managed to get Samba and DHCP up and running, and hope to tackle PPP<BR>
and DNS soon, followed by IP masquerading and IP chains. Compare that<BR>
to checking a single checkbox in W2K.<BR>
<BR>
	Or setting up printers ... that's a task I'm putting off until much<BR>
later (partly because my printer just died, and partly because I<BR>
still get queasy just trying to read through the description in<BR>
"Running Linux") And I won't even get into the Redhat vs SuSe vs<BR>
Caldera/gcc vs egcs/libc5 vs glibc/Gnome vs KDE/etc./etc. issues. Do<BR>
you *really* think your average user is going to be able to sort that<BR>
out? All he/she wants to do is plug in a CD, and go. Pick "Times New<BR>
Roman" "10pt" "Italic" instead of typing in<BR>
"-misc-fixed-bold-r-normal--13-100-100-100-c-70-iso8859-1" --and for<BR>
that matter, he wants to use his existing favorite collection of .TTF<BR>
fonts, .WMF clipart, and all his Microsoft Office documents.<BR>
<BR>
	Sorry, "user-friendly" compared to Winblows it isn't. Compared to<BR>
earlier releases, sure.<BR>
<BR>
	BTW, I personally *prefer* having to get under the hood, as I'd<BR>
rather know what's going on. Bill's designers have never set things<BR>
up the way I would have, and probably never will. As I get the time,<BR>
I will move more and more to Linux. But it's not nearly as easy as<BR>
the Linux apostles will have you believe, especially for somebody<BR>
with no prior Unix experience.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I dunno, this looks more like a religious argument ...<BR>
imagine a riot in 1107 between the Apostles of Bill and the Lords of<BR>
Linus or something. Christopher Stasheff had a religious order of "St<BR>
Cathode of Vidicon" or some such in some of his books.<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see<BR>
random acts of situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1576<BR>
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